Comments on New Cool Thang (defunct version): How God could figure out the future without forekn...

First, thanks for commenting here Fraggle! I alwa...

2005-02-18T16:07:00.000-07:00

First, thanks for commenting here Fraggle! I always hope to find people who can set me straight or at least help me work through the snags. I'll try to respond to your points:

“…if God does have limited foreknowledge, then he cannot accurately predict the results of His own actions... He *definitely* can't go around saying "I know the end from the beginning" as a justification for giving advice and commandment.”

Well it depends on whether we are talking about macro results or micro results. I would say God can predict as exactly as is possible with his infinite knowledge of things past. But if we as individuals really have free will then we have the ability to be unpredictable. I believe we can superimpose the uncertainty principle onto unfolding history of our world. That means God can predict what the group will do with exactness but individuals have more wiggle room. Therefore he can say he knows the end from the beginning without all the problems a fixed future entail.

“He certainly can't go around making promises of salvation”

I actually don't think his foreknowledge or lack thereof is tied to his ability to save.

Posted by Geoff Johnston

There's another problem with this, which is that i...

2005-02-18T14:43:00.000-07:00

There's another problem with this, which is that if God does has limited foreknowledge, then he cannot accurately predict the results of His own actions. He certainly can't go around making promises of salvation and He *definitely* can't go around saying "I know the end from the beginning" as a justification for giving advice and commandment.

Posted by Fraggle

Clark, but in such a scheme he has precious littl...

2005-01-26T13:59:00.000-07:00

Clark,

but in such a scheme he has precious little foreknowledge.This is true. So the real question is if God's having precious little foreknowledge make him unworthy of our worship? If he could still accomplish our exaltation I would say no.

Jonathan,

Clark had the same reaction over at his blog so you must be on to something (or I am describing it wrong). My answers to him were some thing like this:

Q: Does God help us fail sometimes?
A: Yes. It was probably simply a chance to show Peter his weakness. This is completely consistent with our scriptures: “And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness”.

Q: Isn't this manipulation? If so how are we free still?
A: This is a good question. It is part of the reason I am so interested in the question of whether the devil can prompt us or not... If only God can prompt us it seems like there really isn't opposition in all things and that has implications for our agency.

But I believe we can tune into external spiritual promptings or tune them out and hearkening or not has no canceling effect on agency. Unless you are willing to call all promptings from the Holy Ghost "manipulative".

Posted by Geoff Johnston

The problem is that there are various events in th...

2005-01-26T13:30:00.000-07:00

The problem is that there are various events in the future that hinge on the free choices of a few indivudals. Even if there were ways to dealing with humanity in the mass, one wonders how much real information that would provide. i.e. certainly that is a way to grant God foreknowledge but in such a scheme he has precious little foreknowledge.

Posted by clark

There are two things that I have trouble with in t...

2005-01-26T13:26:00.000-07:00

There are two things that I have trouble with in this scenario, 1) God is "inviting" spurious people to essentially give Peter the opportunity to fail. Does He do that? And 2) This is essentially manipulation, which is fine and all, but I have a hard time viewing these agents as having Libertarian Free Will. So if you don't lay claim to both, it works.

Posted by J. Stapley